June 22, 2022

What Follows Grief? The Epiphany Process: Jenetta Barry

What Follows Grief? The Epiphany Process: Jenetta Barry

Today’s episode carries a trigger warning as this interview contains an in-depth discussion of suicide, grief, and mental health issues. I know this can be distressing, so please consider before listening. If you or someone you know are struggling emotionally, call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline 1-800-273-TALK (8255)

Jenetta Barry, Founder of The Epiphany Process and its non-profit, World Jenny's Day, is renowned for having helped many people through crisis. To hear her story - honestly, just to hear her voice, with its wise and soothing tone - is to understand her impact on so many in the wake of her own tragic loss, the suicide of her 16 year old daughter Jenny after they had an enormous argument. In this interview, Jenetta explains how - following an excruciating period of grieving - she went on to study and research accurate ways to get through her extreme grief and loss...and to help young people shift their mindset away from judgment.

Since then, she's been able to impart to others the knowledge that she gained through walking the walk and talking the talk, and has been able to help thousands of people worldwide through application of her Epiphany Process.

Not long after her loss, Jenetta realized that Jenny had died on the 10th of October which is World Mental Health Day, and so we now have World Jenny's Day where Theatre and the Arts are used to creatively shift limiting conversations around depression, suicide and effective solutions.

The overall theme of the day itself is to celebrate Mental Health Wellness.

Key Takeaways:

  • Grief is not a black hole; rather, it is the beginning of a process
  • We should examine our emotions, not just experience them
  • The tools for healing may lie in the gifts we naturally possess

Related links:


Jenetta Barry on the Truth Tastes Funny podcast

[00:00:00] hersh: Today's episode carries a trigger warning because the interview contains an in-depth discussion of suicide grief and mental health issues. I know this can be distressing, so please consider before listening. And if you or someone you know is struggling emotionally, please call the national suicide prevention hotline. 1-800-273-TALK. 1-800-273-8255.

[00:00:29] The funny thing about tragedy is that it stands side by side with comedy for a reason, this is my conversation with Jenetta Barry.



[00:01:14] hersh: When we say the truth tastes funny, sometimes we interpret it as strange, weird or quite honestly not the truth that we would like to hear or deal with. And part of the reason I started this show was to allow ourselves to search for a means of coping with the absurdities. And insanities. And tough realities of life.

[00:01:42] Jenetta Barry is the founder of a nonprofit called World Jenny's Day and also a founder of The Epiphany Process. Jenetta lost her daughter in 2005 to suicide, Jenny was 16 years old at the time, but through the grief, she discovered a process for coming out of that void, I guess you would say Jenetta, thank you for coming on.

[00:02:11] Jenetta Barry: Well, thank you for having me. Honor and privilege. 

[00:02:14] hersh: Thank you. So tell us a little bit about why you created the epiphany process? 

[00:02:27] Jenetta Barry: Yeah, I, I used to be a motivational, a sales motivational speaker and trainer, and I was pretty good at it. You know, with all the rah and people would go away, very fired up and driven and, and the sales would, would come in with it.

[00:02:44] But I noticed that people would come back and say, we need another dose of Jenetta or another fix. And I realized that I was their drug, that they thought they needed to get my energy artificially to be able to do anything and didn't know how to do it for themselves, and I felt out of integrity. So I took myself off for a little while and started studying the intuitive side of my abilities because after all CEOs will tell you that their greatest way of making decisions is their gut feeling their intuition. Most accurate. And again, I started finding people coming back to me saying, we trust your intuition. Ours is lousy. And yet we're all intuitive. It's just a skill that one has to practice and expand. So again, I felt out of integrity whilst I was questioning this, this happened with Jen.

[00:03:44] She and I had an enormous argument whilst I was trying to put safe keeping house rules into place. And she, she killed herself in really, basically rage. And I, I found her and for the, from the moment I found her, I, I knew my, my life was very different. And I went down to ground zero on every level of my life, every single part of it just fell to bits. And I was trying to carry on as normal as I could with my intuitive workshops but inside me was dying. I was in this big black, deep, dark hole feeling like I was living an emotional lifetime prison sentence. And one day I was walking mindlessly along the street going, what am I doing on this planet? And, and in fact, I I'd even then planned my own suicide secretly three times going, I can't go on, but this particular day I was walking along the street, knowing I had to cross the road and I kind of stepped off the pavement and wove between the traffic, how I didn't get hit I don't know.

[00:05:01] And I got to the middle of the road. and I realized that it was like a real epiphany moment. I'd forgotten that I had choice. I had gone into this thing that as a loving mother, my label for the rest of my life was the mother whose daughter committed suicide after an argument. And yeah, that was it.

[00:05:28] And I forgot. There's more to it. It doesn't have to be the label and it doesn't have to define me for the rest of my life and make me a bad mother by doing that. And I carried on walking aimlessly, weaving through the traffic and got to the other side, stepped on the pavement and realized I had had my crossing over moment.

[00:05:50] I call it my crossing over moment. Yeah. Crossing over the street, crossing over in a new way of deciding how to deal with things. And also I got over and crossed safely, so I didn't physically cross over to another dimension. And I then I made the pledge I realized I couldn't take another f'ing minute of living the way I had been.

[00:06:13] And so I set about and started researching and studying, knowing I had to find accurate ways to get through this loss because I, I tried other modalities and therapies and they were helpful. I mean, make no bones about it. They were great, but there was always a missing, and I knew I had to find something that could accurately get me through for the rest of my life to be able to sit here and have a conversation with somebody like you for, for starters.

[00:06:46] And it was tough. It was really, really tough because I always joke that I didn't have a Jenetta around to help because once I started moving things, I was able to start helping other people. And now the epiphany process, I've helped people all over the world for 14 years now, online, I've helped people in terrorists to attack situations with their PTSD. I've helped people who are in bed, not eating or sleeping or washing or, and even self-harming and writing suicide notes. They're out of bed, living lives that are filled with purpose and, and open hearted understanding and appreciation and able to deal with the down times. Cuz that's the big thing they don't go away.

[00:07:40] So that's what I've been able to do with, with what happened. 

[00:07:46] hersh: Now, going back to the time before Jenny's suicide, you had mentioned to me earlier that you were trying to establish a, a protected, safe home for her. What were the struggles prior to this enormous argument? 

[00:08:06] Jenetta Barry: Yeah, it's a good question. Cuz most people miss that beat when I talk this story and it's, and it's a very sound one. We'd been walking a walk with Jenny for, for four years. Actually. She'd always been my most testing child from the moment they put her in my arms, after she was born, she was a squiggly, squirmy, little wormy being, was never comfortable in her skin. Never. I mean, a beautiful girl, beautiful personality when she wasn't in that neurotic sense of being, very wise when she wasn't things would come out her mouth and I'd go, wow, where did that come from? But at the age of 14, she came to me and said, mom, I've been suicidal my whole life. I tried to choke myself in front of the mirror when I was seven and I haven't told anybody and I can feel now I've hit puberty. I'm just not coping. I, I am scared I'm gonna do it. And we were in and out of rehabs. And actually this was her fourth attempt. But what happens with this dynamic is because the person is feeling so out of control in their depression they find ways to feel like they're in control. So that's where eating disorders kick in because it's the one thing they can control. And she had an eating disorder, but the other is how they can manipulate people to get what they want so that they feel like life's controllable. So there was a lot of manipulation going on and, and rule breaking.

[00:09:48] hersh: Sometimes parents get together around an incident and try to gauge whether it's a manipulation that's happening with the drama, whether the ideation is something that they would seriously do or they're vocalizing it. And by vocalizing it they're either manipulating the situation or getting something out that they would otherwise be keeping secret, which would be far more dangerous. You know, we're always trying to make sense of the signals that our children give. And you were saying something that sounded to me like that's possible that we're getting both, we're getting manipulated and we're facing possibly a very serious situation.

[00:10:31] Jenetta Barry: Absolutely. I, I think the big thing is that what I've seen now in working with kids that are the age Jenny was at that time is that they they're lacking coping skills and they're lacking the ability to take extreme overthinking and extreme over emotionalizing and bring them into manageability.

[00:11:00] So what happens is when you are rollercoastering between overthinking and feeling over emotional, you are out of control. You feel powerless. And the internal conversations are, this is literally the type of conversations when I start working with these kids is you're a loser you're boring, you know, you're worthless, so with that internal conversation going on, the only way they can express themselves in that anguish is to either burst out, hit out or act out to feel as though they're okay. And in control. So it's about being able to change those well, not even change, but give the skills for that person to bring those conversations and that internal viewpoint of themselves into a new way of looking at themselves so that they see whatever it is they're judging in themselves has value. Yeah. And when they start getting the value of what they think is worthless, they get it, they sit there going I'm okay. I'm alright. I'm cool. 

[00:12:20] hersh: One thing that adults and children are equally adept at is putting on a front of stability and control and mental health that we are so convinced that revealing that that issue will be devastating, that the thing we hear most often when something tragic like this happens is that they were happy they had everything they were do it's obviously not always a situation where there had been a tremendous amount of acting out, but something was going on and, and then we failed to see it. And we see this in adults too. Oh, they were so happy. They were so giving, they were doing this. I thought they, I thought they were doing fine and that's terrifying to us cuz we're as human beings, we're used to recognizing signs.

[00:13:18] Yeah. That's how we. Society operates that way. We see a sign and we read it but something else is happening here. 

[00:13:26] Jenetta Barry: Yeah. And actually what you've pointed out there is, is, is another thing is that people think that people typically show their deep depression and suicidal ideation in a specific way.

[00:13:42] And it comes in many guises and forms. It can be where you can really see the person is they're not getting out of bed and they're not eating and they're not doing anything. That's a very typical one. But Jenny, when, when I took when Jenny came to me at 14, I took her to the family doctor and the, and the doctor said, so what's the problem today?

[00:14:06] And Jenny said, I'm suicidal. And she went, no, Jenny, you're just feeling down. You're such a happy child. You've always got a smile on your face. And she just wouldn't listen. And Jenny had to say, please listen to me. I want to kill myself.

[00:14:24] hersh: Right. 

[00:14:25] Jenetta Barry: And fortunately, she, she said that because I think other kids just don't know how to express that, even. So it, it comes out in, in many, many, many ways, but the, the big thing is when that child can identify. that they're needing, they're needing help and they ask for help. That's the big one. It's when the ones that you don't know, that's a challenge. 

[00:14:54] hersh: And now we're looking at everything I use the word suspiciously. I don't know why, but we look everywhere for signs now because we are experiencing what I would call a global mental health crisis.

[00:15:09] Yeah. That's nothing that we don't already know, but, but we are aware that that's another reason for, for this program is that we are all, we're all in a similar catastrophe in the sense that we are all traumatized at the same time, which put 

[00:15:31] Jenetta Barry: the same thing. . Yes. 

[00:15:33] hersh: Yes. And we are, and we've either experienced loss or we are looking at loss and, and what we use that word that everyone always uses unimaginable, unimaginable tragedy, because we cannot imagine how we would cope with it. And at the same time, we are constantly in fear of it. If. A parent. And you're worried about a child's mental health, or if you're an adult and you're worried about a family member's mental health there, there isn't anyone. I can't imagine who doesn't either have issues themselves. That's another thing that I wanna talk about is what you went through, but as far as where you got about nine months after Jenny's passing, where you started to recognize that that black hole was not infinite. Right. What, what happened at that moment? 

[00:16:37] Jenetta Barry: I just knew that there, that I thought I had no choice. Did have choice, but also at the same time I had, I realized that I had no choice to carry on. In other words, I didn't want that choice to carry on living the way I had, you know, people, people put you under a lot of pressure and a lot of things happen and it, and it can blindside you. and for me, I knew I had to become very clear and certain and specific about how the rest of my life would pan out. I couldn't say exactly how it would pan out, but I knew that it would be with a feeling of understanding hope being able to step back and see the bigger picture on what had happened.

[00:17:32] Not just the one in front of me. Right. And I knew that I had to find that and look for that. 

[00:17:40] hersh: And with your memory of Jenny and now the legacy of Jenny, how do you, how do you frame the entire picture? 

[00:17:54] Jenetta Barry: You know, it was a timeline we released Jenny's cause I'm actually from Africa, I always joke and say I'm a Masai disguise because I'm all of five foot and very, very pale.

[00:18:08] And most Maasai are very tall and quite dark, but we, we are from Africa and my son and I were releasing Jenny's ashes over the reef. And south of Mombasa and I stood there and went something meaningful, has to come out of this senseless loss, something. And I knew it wasn't going to be ad water and stir stuff.

[00:18:34] And the very first thing that I started questioning was science says that energy cannot be created or destroyed. It completes itself in that version, that particular version, and then reforms into a new version of itself. So if that's the case, where's my daughter where where's her energy, where where's that energy gone and what's it vibrating and resonating at, and I started chronically over four years, what that was about. And then in, in the fifth year, I, I published full circle rainbow, which is a very thin book, cuz I couldn't make up the stuff to put in there. I could only put in things when I knew without a doubt that there, there was something there.

[00:19:26] And one of the things by way of example, to not go too off track. Was the unbelievable revelation after a lucid dream, where I realized the numbers seven and nine are so closely connected to Jenny her birth date and year and her death date and year. And both those dates all added up, come to sevens and nines.

[00:19:49] For starters. We won't go on all the other parts of seven and nines as relates to Jen. So it was things like that. And often when something significant is about to happen and I'm not quite sure seven and nine start coming up within what we're working with. And, and I know it's a form of communication that shows there's no separation.

[00:20:14] We're all interconnected. So full circle rainbow. I thought, well, that's it that that'll help me for the rest of the, my life, but it, I could feel it wasn't and I'd already started working with my process. And then I thought, okay, well, the process is helpful and I'm helping people. And now I've given it a name and it's doing amazing things. And then four years ago I grew up in the theater and I, I had the most wonderful opportunity also through. An incredible set of happenings that showed it should happen and, and led it to happen. We put on a two act theatrical production using contemporary dance and voiceover and visuals and all sorts of things on depression, suicide, and solutions. And we used excerpts from Jenny's diary and a few of my writings and all sorts of things. And it was, it was really well received from people who didn't understand what it felt to be suicidal from the people who did, who went ah, long, last were being understood. And overall what it's like to be the carer of the person who's feeling compromised. Cuz that's the other side that gets forgotten. the carers take a lot of flack. Yeah. And and then the solutions, and then it got, it got invited to be performed in Europe and we are wanting to franchise it worldwide as another charity. And then last of all on this whole timeline Jenny died on the 10th of October, which is world mental health day.And so we now have world Jenny's day using theater in the arts to start new conversations that are very soft. When you use theater in the arts, it takes a contentious subject and softens it and gets everybody to relax and express and feel natural. And we are now going into the third world Jenny's day this year, using theater in the arts. 

[00:22:29] hersh: Well, that's something that I feel very close to the notion of transmuting something into art so that people can be both more intimate with it, and less i mmediately affected by the weight of it.

[00:22:48] You know, we talked a little bit about humor and what I do is I equate humor and humanity in the same. that humor is meant to heal and alleviate and break barriers and break fear.

[00:23:06] Humor's like a, like a, like a heavy rock that breaks fear. But when it, if you imagine fear as some kind of horrible monster and this big, enormous rock falls of this monster and the Monster's eyes roll around, that's funny to us, like I could see possibly a, a stage show that you mentioned that some of the perspectives are forgotten the perspective of the parent the perspective of the person who takes their life we often will never understand. We feel we're at a loss. If there's a higher power, if there's a God, if there's a creator or a mother of the universe and we wonder how could terrible things happen, but we don't think about the perspective of that being. We just take it for granted that it's either some non-existent figment of our imagination or it's some evil jerk that, that is doing these things.

[00:23:56] But theater would allow us to explore these things with, with humor in the right place because humor is also a way for us to laugh at something. We'll do it. Involuntarily, someone slips on a banana peel and we, and we, and we laugh involuntarily because we're releasing the fear or the pain. Do you think that in the case of something like suicide, that there is an avenue or room for theatrical exploration of this in a way that, that demystifies it somewhat? 

[00:24:43] Jenetta Barry: Absolutely. In actual fact obviously. The con a lot of the content of that show was quite emotional in an uplifting way.

[00:24:54] But I realized, you know, rather like Shakespeare realized he needed the clowns or the gestures to come in and there needed to be humor in between scenes. I realized that we needed it in that production by wave example, but still giving over the, the message that is really very impactful and important and serious.

[00:25:20] And interestingly enough, the, the piece that I chose for that was. The carers and the family having to keep quiet. Cuz one of the things Jenny did was she, she silenced us all and said, you're not allowed to tell anybody that I'm going through this. And so I wasn't even allowed to talk to my best friend in case it triggered her to, to commit suicide.

[00:25:44] And that's a very lonely place and also it leads to that, that manipulation of what you can and can't do. As a family. So we, we, we put in a, a, a piece, a com a comic piece using the song, sunshine and lollipops, and it just was perfect. Cuz it brought everything up a beat, had people laughing at how everybody was running around double time, like in a 1920s movie, after, after this, this person, that's just sort of not doing anything and they'd move her. And it was that sort of thing, but it got the message over. So, absolutely. Yes. 

[00:26:29] hersh: Well, that's interesting. And affirming, you know, to hear, because I think that what you're describing in some of these situations is a hostage situation. the fear that somebody might do this once it is known or expressed is a weapon for them and an inhibitor for the person who hears it. And, you know, maybe through theater, through music, through humor, and we see this in songs and we see it, you know, we see it in other, in other art forms that we can start to think things instead of reacting to them can start having a thought process go on. Yeah. So you have a son, how many children do you have?

[00:27:18] Jenetta Barry: Altogether, I'm the mother of four, two boys, two girls. So I have two sons. The son with me that was with me for Jenny's ashes is my second. And I, I have a younger daughter Jenny's, Jenny's younger sister and a, and an older brother to Neil as well. So yeah, four and they're all in their Catherine's in her late twenties and Stuart and Neil are in their thirties and, and Stuart is 40 this year. It's like really? And Jenny would've been 33 this year. It's like, I don't know where these years go.. 

[00:27:58] hersh: And what do they do? 

[00:28:00] Jenetta Barry: Stewart is actually a, a systems architect with an ad agency. And so they, they he's all the it side of all the ads and amazing heads it up. Neil is in the African Bush. He was in Batswana in the Okovanga Delta. He's now almost into the Mozambique border in South Africa and looks after guests and has a lot to do with wildlife and the ecology.

[00:28:31] And so I have two grandchildren who, who think life is about animals, killing each other, and it's all fine. And that that's another story. Cracked me up when I was with them a couple of months ago, where we were playing cars and animals on a, you know, where you've got the diner and the shop and all on a, on a mat.

[00:28:52] And I had to, I chose an elephant and I, I, I was the elephant driving the car to the shops. That, what, what do you eat? Or you eat grass, but I'm lion. So I need to eat meat, but I've gotta kill the kill for the meat. No, no, no. Right. I've got my meat. . 

[00:29:10] hersh: So, well, it's the circle of life. Yeah. They're, they're just acknowledging what happens in nature.

[00:29:17] Jenetta Barry: Exactly. And think the reason why I brought it up and shared it with you is that if, if I go away with nothing else, my parting words with this is that I do believe as human beings we've become fearful of death. and death must be avoided at all costs. We must only die at a certain age. Yet. 70 years ago, people dying in their seventies were old. Now that's young. So does that mean that the people 70 years ago died at 70 died, too young when everybody then said they were old or, or when's the right time to die. And we changed that goal post all the time. The fact that you've gotta avoid at all costs till you decide when a good time is to die. The, the fact that in the jungles and in the Savannahs and in out there in the wild, there's no mother of a, of a baby that's lost that baby that goes, I, I should have gone before my baby. , right. Because what I mean, there is a period of mourn and there is a loss for that mother, if the young one is killed by a lion or another lion kills a lion Cub, or whatever happens out there, cuz it is the cycle of life. We've forgotten we are part of that cycle of life.

[00:30:49] So when people say no mother should bury their child or they were too young. The, you know, it's, it's all part of life and death, and we've forgotten that being born, living and dying is all part of a beautiful whole happening whilst we continue to keep death out of it. It's very attractive to find out why it's not permissible and does that make sense? When a person's going, I want to leave the planet and everybody around them saying you are not allowed to. Yeah. It's like saying to a toddler, you see that corner over there. You're so not allowed to go there. Guess where they go. It's like, why can't I be there? What's there.

[00:31:39] What's happening. Yeah, I know. And, and I've seen this time and time again, and you touched on exactly that earlier. When you know that you've got choice to stay or go, it it's liberating. And I'm not saying you go around saying to everybody, please make sure that, you know, you, you could go and, and go, but it there's been a huge charge on death.

[00:32:03] And I, and I think it's created a lot of stress and worry about something that's natural. And if we could bring death into balance a lot of mental health Challenges with balance as well. 

[00:32:19] hersh: I thought of that when you mentioned your grandchildren and I was thinking, yeah, well they see death all the time. They see animals kill each other and that's what, that's what happens in nature. And so they have a healthy fear of danger, but they aren't terrified by the prospect of mortality.

[00:32:42] And my hope is that we, we, we bring out things that no, that people don't wanna talk about. That's that's if, if we dedicated a portion of our day to having uncomfortable conversations I joked recently that I would love to have people come on, my show who have opposing opinions. As long as they come around to see my point of view and agree with me, ultimately , but, but really, but really I do want people with divergent opinions.

[00:33:19] I'm not looking for mirror images of myself. I'm looking for people with answers and that I don't have. And I'm looking for people with opinions that may be uncomfortable to express in another forum. we have to force to the forefront and an understanding of the Myster the mysteries of life are some of them aren't mysteries they're just shitty things that we don't really wanna talk about that we don't want to hear about because we're, and this is an interesting thing to finish off that sentence. You've just said, and it's because we're in one sided perception on a picture that has two sides to it. And we get, we, we, we get stuck on the one sided side as being the truth and it's only half the truth.

[00:34:14] Jenetta Barry: And that's why that happens. 

[00:34:18] hersh: If we accepted the fact that at best, each one of us is in possession of half the truth. Then we might spend the rest of our time, looking for that other piece instead of rejecting its existence. 

[00:34:36] Jenetta Barry: Exactly. And that is what I looked for after I stepped, off that pavement, I started looking for the other side and where, where my judgment was blocking blinding and distorting me from seeing that whole picture.

[00:34:54] hersh: Yeah. And it seems to circle back to, to your own disparity for a moment where you were struggling with that after Jenny's passing, you were, you were experiencing some of the, some of the same hopelessness, some of the same feeling of, of, you know, suicidal thoughts. And what I have found is when I get down and when I start to experienced despondent or whatever it might be that the, something will flip that switch back. And, and not only does it flip it back, but it, it flips it all the way back. Like I was going through a tough time and feeling depressed and then I had to go fly somewhere and there's terrible turbulence and I'm like, Jesus Christ. I don't wanna tie the plane. I don't want this plane to go down. You know? And I'm so terrified. I'm so terrified that the plane's gonna go down. And before I got on the plane, I was having all these negative self talk experiences about how I sucked and how everything was terrible and, you know, and how was I, how was I, you know, I just felt terrible. And then the plane starts to shake and I realize you. Oh, well, I must not really be that down on myself if I'm so intent on preserving my life on this flight. And also it can be something good that happens. And but again, all I can think is that the conversations are better had than not.

[00:36:35] Jenetta Barry: Yes. Agreed. 

[00:36:38] hersh: We may be held hostage by the fear of somebody doing something terrible to themselves. But as a whole, as a society, if we can start to put everything on the table, then it may take away some of that leverage. And some of that fear, like you say, the fear of death, the apprehension about death. If we can overcome it in some way, it doesn't mean we want everybody to go out and kill themselves. God forbid it means we want everybody to, to start to see the entire expanse. Yeah. 

[00:37:19] Jenetta Barry: You know, so that one can be comfortable in. One's own skin without having to leave the planet. That that's the big thing. Yes. And I think what you've just said if you say to have those conversations, is the first big step. The next is what I have seen is that when you can have a conversation that doesn't rollercoaster between fear and judgment, which is where most of. Go when we're angst filled.

[00:37:52] Definitely. If I had the skills back then that I have now to converse and communicate, I listen differently now and I respond differently from an inner place where my wisdom is. Whereas before I was too distracted rollering between all my thoughts and emotions that I couldn't access that in inner wisdom.

[00:38:17] So when you can start new conversations that don't come from knee jerk, reactions that come from the truth and the light. So you can authentically speak your truth and the person can hear and feel that you are not saying it to hurt. You're not saying it to destroy. , you're not saying it out of fear.

[00:38:42] You're not saying it because you're judging, you're saying it because it's your truth. And they're in a place where they're not in kneejerk reaction from past whatever it is. That's got them to respond out of that place of centered in a wisdom. So they're responding from that roller coaster of emotions and feeling inadequate and when that starts happening and I'm seeing it happen more and more, the more I do this work that people are having authentic conversations once they've got the skills to deal with the rollercoaster, overwhelming thoughts and emotions that distract them from their inner wisdom. And that's the work that I do.

[00:39:36] hersh: And what, and, and what did Jenny express in terms of judgment and feeling inadequate? What was, because that is another thing we, we see as a, a, you know, these days children's ideas of perfection and judgment and social media, the ability to destroy one another virtually.

[00:40:00] Yeah. She used to say that she used to say, I feel so judged and I feel unheard. I, I feel judged unheard, and I feel like I can't accurately con express myself. She used to say to me, mum, my throat is always tight. I feel like I, the wrong things come out my mouth and people say the wrong things back to me, those, those were the things that used to bother her the most was she could not accurately express herself without fear of judgment and retribution and loss. And that's now, do you, it was her constant conversation. I, I can't talk, nobody understands me and I can't express myself accurately. 

[00:40:54] And how accurate do you think that assessment was 

[00:40:59] Jenetta Barry: very, very accurate. It was her truth in trying to, and here's another one trying to understand what she felt and she'd tell me, you know, this one said that and then, and then I felt common and I went, but Jenny, everybody feels like that. We all feel like somebody's judging us and it's not fair. And, and she went, but mom, I'm not everybody right. Because we can so easily whitewash it and say, well, that's how everybody is. So get over yourself. And each person requires the skills to uniquely understand what it is that their rollercoastering on.

[00:41:44] And then it doesn't matter what other people think will say or do anymore. That's the other thing that happens when you work on yourself and all those sometimes hidden judgment. And you start understanding the value of that, which you were judging as unacceptable and loving and, and lovable. And you start seeing where there's equal amount of acceptance and lovability in that, which you were previously judging.

[00:42:14] You become very centered and present and suddenly it doesn't matter what other people think say or do. I've worked with quite a few teenagers on social media issues. Where they could hardly operate without a, their phone to find out how many likes they had and B being destroyed when they found that people were not only not giving them the likes, but were not being very nice about them.

[00:42:42] They're going around now going. I don't, whatever they think of me is their issue. Those are the words they're now using. 

[00:42:49] hersh: So you are able to get through to them, to some of these people, to help them understand that judgment. Isn't their problem. That they're not responsible for what other people think of them. 

[00:43:05] Jenetta Barry: It's a really interesting scenario. What they're, what I do is I, I am the giver of the tools for them to do that. So they start working it, I don't do it. I give them the tools and I show them how to find, hone those tools.

[00:43:23] And what happens is whatever we judge in ourselves as being unloved or unlovable or unaccept. we try and be the opposite to it so that we can be perfect. So we shut down half of who we are basically as unacceptable and unlovable. So anything we shut down and judges not part of who we are, we're going to attract people and circumstances into our lives that reflect exactly that, which we judge in our.

[00:43:58] And in, in effect, they become our inadvertent teachers, those people and circumstances. But whilst you haven't got the tools to deal with that dynamic, it just feels like you're being threatened and attacked when you've got the tools and you start seeing that they are a reflection of yourself. And that it's working on yourself on that, which you judge, and you start loving that, which you previously judged when you are in a place of self appreciation.

[00:44:30] It doesn't matter what other people think. Cuz your heart's open and you are understanding, oh, okay. That bigger picture. Oh, they reacted like that because that's what's happening at home. It has nothing to do with me. There's they, you can see, they can. That bigger picture instead of it being all about them.

[00:44:53] hersh: It's complex though, right? 

[00:44:56] Jenetta Barry: Not when they do, it's not. It's, it's complex to explain, but when, when a person starts working with me within half an hour, they, that's why I call it the epiphany process within a half an hour. They're going, oh, my word. Oh, oh my word. I never thought about it that way. Never ever, even when I ask the questions they go, I've never been asked a question like that before, and it gets the unconscious consciousness to awaken to where the truth is.

[00:45:30] And it blows them. 

[00:45:32] hersh: It's like you, like you had have said that depression was your savior. So, so it was by opening yourself up to the full reality of your emotions and what you were experiencing that you were able to, it's almost like turning judgment on its ear.

[00:45:52] Jenetta Barry: Yes. 

[00:45:53] hersh: Like you're like, you're saying, I want to, I'm gonna judge the emotions. I'm gonna judge them fairly, but I'm going to examine and judge these emotions and see what I can take from it. It's not something that's being done to me. 

[00:46:10] Jenetta Barry: It's even more than that because that's still quite analytical and in the brain and then still suppresses the feelings.

[00:46:18] But it's when you understand with wholehearted acceptance, that all that you are and all that you aren't is fine, that there's perfection in the imperfection and imperfection in the perfection and each serve each other to the same degree that they don't. And when you get to that feeling, both the head and the heart are having complementary conversations, implementary conversations with each other instead of opposing.

[00:46:49] So you're not just in your head logical and you're not in your emotions being over emotional. The two are conversing. It's huge. 

[00:47:01] hersh: Well, Jenetta Barry, thank you so much for being on this show. It's, it's an honor for me. And I always look at these things in terms of steps towards something. And I really hope that your message gets out to more people and your methods get out to more people because first of all, when something helps and works and heals, you want to share it. And that's what you've been trying to do. And secondly, because the way you present present all of this is soothing and, and inspiring. And it's, an incredible tribute to Jenny and to her memory that you do this 

[00:47:49] Jenetta Barry: well, thank you. I, I thank you for the opportunity in this type of forum, because it's not very often, one can have a deeply meaningful conversation. Like in a podcast or in an interview. So for me, this has been a very inspiring opportunity to converse with you. So I thank you. And also for people out there to hear things differently, cuz normally the same things are said and the same things are asked and I loved we were outside the box today. So thank you. 

[00:48:28] hersh: Oh, thank you. My, my pleasure. That's wonderful hear.